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To think that your "test footage" is better than the R1MX is making me laugh beyond control. I looked at the shots for myself and can see that the MX is just plain better. Why compare apples and oranges when you might have the best 4k phone app out there already. Your digging yourself into a really deep hole comparing it with REAL cameras for actual production.
Just take it for what it is, a great 4k app for the phone. Simply put. Tony is right on the money when he suggests your trying too hard to market to the wrong consumers. Please post a link to the two comparison full resolution still frames that show that the MX is "just plain better". When you are already opposed, just saying the MX is better without pointing out the details means nothing. I am more than ready to have this debate with you and look at both x still frames.
Don't waste time on issues we have already resolved. If you can pull a frame from any of the Red One MX R3D files that you truly believe "is just plain better" than the corresponding frame from Vizzywig 4K, email them to me or post a link to both frames and specifically point out what you are talking about. Michael, I don't have the time to go back and forth over something I have no use for in a production setting anyway. If this was a great product for production you would not have industry folks bashing your claim to supremacy. Taking a still JPG with a baked in look with very little ability to grade in post without damaging the image is not even comparable to a RAW image.
The ability to grade the exact image in post with the two different formats is not even comparable. Sure if I was a consumer and didn't care to grade in post then I might be happy with the end result. The main point here is your trying to market to industry professionals on this site. Now it's all about still frames?
I thought this was about capturing high quality 4K video. Keep moving the goal post Michael and I'll keep watching from the "cheap seats". Also, it always seems to come down to some sort of dick measuring contest with you Michael. It just reveals your character or lack thereof , but if you must know I've worked on apps. Hell, I designed one. I've been shooting and editing since I was 12 years old. Professionally since I was I've got over 20 years of real world professional experience. It doesn't. Not to mention silly insinuation that your apps JPG backend solution is equal or superior to Redcode.
A codec means nothing if it's encoder is nothing more than sub-consumer camcorder level. I don't need to do a dick measuring contest with you Michael because the facts are already out there. There's a mountain of them you refuse to acknowledge. Everything about you reeks of money man, out of touch with his customer base. You certainly aren't coming off as a professional shooter. No professional shooter would make the claims you have. Buying a RED camera doesn't make you an expert in cameras.
Tony, if you give up your absurd no-dick-measuring stance, we can bring you both to a seedy motel off the Las Vegas strip and have you guys whip it out in front of an iPhone running Vizzywig and a Red One MX, and see who comes out on top, once and for all. Why don't you point out a specific example frame that proves our still frames are not as good as the Red One MX.
Just pick two frames and post a link here or email them to me. It makes much more sense to discuss a specific example. Again, I am willing to rent you a Red One MX for a day and let you pick the locations and the shots and I'll shoot the same things. Then we post the final, graded footage and let the people on this forum decide. I think you know instinctively that your footage won't look enough better than Vizzywig 8xHD for it to matter.
I can't think of any other reason why you won't take me up on this generous offer. You keep mentioning a mountain of facts. If the facts are so clear, and if I am willing to pay all of the costs and let you make all of the rules, why are you so afraid of putting your facts to the test in a real-world camera test. You know what Tony, I'll even rent you a Red Epic Dragon for a day so you can show the world how much "better" you can make that camera look in a real-life shooting scenario than I can make Vizzywig 8xHD look in the same scenario.
No Michael. I know instinctively it's not worth my time. Again, you are the one making the claims that nobody else but you believes. Go ahead and look through the comments on this article and the last one. The majority of people on here your actual customer base do not believe you. The burden of proof is yours alone. The lens. This is no me expressing opinion Michael. This is simply a matter of engineering and physics. The sensor. Simply put, the photosites on an iPhone sensor are simply too small to compete with larger 4K camera sensors. Noise and light gathering are extremely compromised.
Again, this is not opinion. This is fact. This is the last and probably least important part of of the process. The one you seem to think matters above all else regardless of the facts staring you in the face. RedCode is more efficient than your JPG solution. The look is baked in and the look is typically iPhone-like. Even if you think H is worse than JPG try editing a JPG in photoshop and see how quickly it degrades you're simply avoiding the obvious, the efficiency of the compression algorithm in concert with a good backend encoder.
Even if your JPGS somehow managed to work some sort of compression miracle you've still got garbage lens, garbage sensor, and garbage encoder to get though before an image is outputted. These are all facts you are either ignorant of or willfully avoiding to acknowledge in order to sell your overpriced product.
Continuing to propose some sort of lame-brained shootout in the face of these FACTS only illuminates your desperation. Get a grip Michael. Stop treating people on here like they are morons. Embrace your customer base and sell your product for a reasonable price. You keep talking about the technical specifications. All consumers and viewers really care about is the final visual result they can see on a 4K television or projected in 2K in a theater.
Your hesitation has nothing to do with this being a waste of time or you wouldn't spend so much of your time answering here on this forum. You are hesitant to take the reins of a Red Epic Dragon in a real-world filming situation against Vizzywig 8xHD on an iPhone 5S because of how similar the end result will look to most consumers and viewers. However, those lenses often cost thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars. There are several excellent lens options for the 5S if you need wide angle or telephoto.
I am not trying to say those compare to Ultra Primes, just saying the results are amazingly comparable to most viewers considering the enormous cost difference. It is the product of incredible engineering and mass economies of scale.
The iPhone 5S still photo camera is being used by major fortune companies for print catalogues, posters and fashion show shoots. Let everyone look at them side by side together. Embarrass me, I don't care. I think you are afraid you might look silly when you can't get an Epic Dragon shot to come out looking substantially better than an iPhone 5S shot.
That is probably some of the most sophisticated image processing code in the world. No one else has ever made such a small 8MP sensor with a plastic lens look so amazingly good. I agree the H. You can do the same for best results. You have your own opinion but you can't even find two comparison frames to prove what you are saying and you refuse to put your skills to the test. That's where you are missing the point Tony. It's always been about still frames. The higher the quality of each still frame, and the more we can capture per second at the user-preferred shutter speed, the better the 4K video will be.
As mentioned above, we are achieving 30fps on the new iPad Air 2 in our internal testing and the iOS 8. Michael clearly doesn't want to listen to his actual customer base in an attempt to seek out an imaginary one. In an imaginary world where people are desperate to be flying multiple drones with iPhones attached capturing 3 minutes of a child's birthday party with 4K JPGS! All being controlled from an iPad where they can hopefully cut together a 60 second clip to upload to youtube. In all honesty. Not at all practical for any real world professional usage, but neat none the less.
I sincerely hope they got paid well before hand. Well, it's been fun guys. I've said all I can say. I'll see you back here in a couple months when Michael changes the name and price of the app again. I'm guessing maybe That sound about right Michael?
Sorry you have to learn things the hard way. Until then, talk to ya next time! We listen very closely to our customer base. Email our support address and you'll see how quick we are to listen and respond. Please let us know your suggestions for improvement. We've already added several amazing features for the next update by popular request.
I am looking forward to putting Vizzywig 8xHD running on the new iPad Air 2 up against a Red Epic Dragon in the hands of esteemed professional filmmaker Tony Tibbetts whenever he accepts the challenge. We will both post the footage for this community to debate and discuss. The future is changing guys. It's simply a matter of years measured on a single hand.
Mark my words. This is not me expressing opinion Michael. I thought you were taking two months away from this discussion? Grip that. Nothing but subjective assessments that go against every known fact regarding sensors, lenses, and encoding. Michael when are you going to get it through your head that the burden of proof is up to you. If you truly want a legit comparison with a known impartial pixel peeper I suggested Andrew Reid in the older forum, but you conveniently ignored that I have no interest in wasting my time with your app, when I have paying jobs to attend to.
Why not have an impartial source that does this for a living? Lens is garbage and you admit most people won't notice. You're absolutely right! That's what makes it consumer, not professional. The sensor is a toy. A well engineered toy, but a toy none the less. It was never designed for anything more than consumer not professional use. The encoding, while pretty good for a camera phone is still consumer grade.
Because of the simple fact that it was never intended for anything other than consumer use. Sir you've convinced me of the veracity of your arguments with this comment alone! Guess what? Still, no one on here believes you. I wonder why that is? Actually I don't. That's a question for you to ponder Michael. The file format is Photo JPG.
The resolution is x not x The resolution, color and bit depth are all lacking compared to Vizzywig 8xHD and there are a lot more compression artifacts. Regarding ProCam People don't want to have to connect their device to a computer and offload files to be able to post 4K to YouTube or Vimeo. Mostly though, the people on this forum, care about quality and being able to grade their footage.
ProCam 2 isn't recording 4K resolution, the gradients fall apart, there are bad compression artifacts around areas of detail and the data rate is only about 12MB per second vs. We could use the same shortcut ProCam 2 is using, which takes 5 minutes. We are not competing against Android 4K phones or against apps like ProCam 2 that use device presets, we are aiming for quality that can be cut in with footage from the Red EPIC Dragon. Every pixel matters, every bit matters. Hey Michael. Nice job on talking down the competition.
Let me introduce my self. I'm the lead developer on ProCam 2. First, let's be clear about one thing. The iPhone's 8MP sensor produces x resolution images. This means that your claims of native 4K resolution are a blatant lie. What your doing is upscaling each image from x to x before encoding the video, while we encode the video at x and then upscale to x Our method produces the same results but much more efficiently.
Our quality is much higher and you know that. I am certain you have compared. Compression sacrifices resolution and quality. Do you want to compare footage? I'm more than willing to put our app to the test against yours. Your claimed "efficiency" comes at the cost of compression artifacts, blotchy gradients and aliasing on text and other smooth and sharp edges. If you were capturing full 8MP photos, there would be a shutter sound. If you've replaced the sound file with a silent one, you are in violation of Apple policy.
There's no "legal" way around the shutter sound on 8MP capture. So which is it? We have not told any lies.
Our 4K ANA mode has been explained. We have more than enough vertical resolution to claim 4K in that mode. Have you read our iTunes Description? We are very clear about what we are doing and what we are claiming. In fact, our iTunes Description is essentially the documentation on this entire concept. Your team is claiming "4K UltraHD Video" without the detailed mathematical explanations our description provides. You are not even scaling up the x, you are just changing the resolution of the wrapper meta data.
When you open your movie files in Adobe Photoshop or After Effects and check image size, they are clearly x yet you are telling users they are x without any disclaimer. In addition, you are claiming 30fps on iPhone 6 Plus but iLounge reported today that you are only doing fps at best. Here's an excerpt from their article:. Don't you at least have some desire to shoot for a day for free with a fully kitted Epic Dragon Tony? Even if you are busy with paying jobs, it would seem that would be worth your time especially if you get to pick the locations and shots and keep the footage for your reel.
Stop laughing already and take the challenge. Just think of how stupid you can make me look when you post your Epic Dragon footage and I post my Vizzywig 8xHD footage for this community to compare and debate. I have iphone 6 , so the only solution for now is Procam IF you can make this app for 6 and 6 plus, i will get it! We are working on it John. We have finally achieved 30fps on the iPad Air 2 and have increased the fps on iPhones 5S so we are hopeful that we will be able to do the same on the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus soon. Open the ProCam 2 footage in Photoshop though, really.
Check the resolution, it's x Shoot a sunset and another daylight scene with lots of detail and see how the gradients in the sky and edges around text fall apart with the lower bit rate and substantial JPG compression artifacts. Vizzywig claims of encoding in native 4K resolution are false. Vizzywig is upscaling each image from x to x before encoding the video, while we encode the video at x and then upscale to x Do you disclose that you are saving out x Photo JPG files whose meta data wrapper has been altered to say x? Importing the files yields x Regarding our claims of 4K resolution, do you understand what we are doing with the Moondog Labs Anamorphic Lens to get x out of the x sensor?
Have you carefully studied our public tests against the Red One MX? Have you compared our still frames against your still frames? Vizzywig's claims of encoding in native 4K resolution are false. Love your app man. Any chance we can get higher bitrates and shutter speed control in future updates? That would make your app pretty much perfect. Your pricing and features are exactly what people are looking for when it comes to an app like this. Michael could definitely benefit taking a page out of your book.
Seems like ProCam 2 has done nothing more than take a page out of our book It's very easy for us to increase bitrates and we are considering adding a higher bitrate option in the next update. It is not rocket science, as Michael makes it out to be! For us, the most important goal was to find the right balance between video quality and practicality. After all, we are talking about shooting a 4K video on a smart phone with limited storage. Then we desqueeze the anamorphic frames to x and scale DOWN to x The vertical resolution key to UltraHD is p, we have scaled down to Please do your homework before making false accusations publicly Majed.
Also keep in mind the effect that compression has on resolution. Michael, with all do respect, that's a very weak argument. The only difference is that we don't try to conceal our methodology. However, for us, the most important goal was to find the right balance between video quality and practicality. After all, we are talking about shooting 4K videos on a smart phone with limited storage. By the way, we'd appreciate it if you could remove your 1 star review on the App Store. It's very unprofessional. We have refrained from doing the same.
Actually, Vizzywig 8xHD produces much higher quality Majed. Our iTunes description is clear about the x We aren't claiming 4K UltraHD like your description is. Update the name of your In-App purchase and your iTunes Description. If you are able to capture frames at the same quality as we are and maintain the frame rates, why don't you just give users a setting to change the JPG quality setting like we do. If you cannot maintain the frame rates and match our quality level, you should disclose that to your users. I am glad to see competition. It's good for both of us. I bought your app because we do not yet support 30fps on the iPhone 6 and my personal phone is an iPhone 6.
I was looking forward to using your app on my iPhone 6 for now to shoot 4K. However, I could not manually set the shutter speed or the JPG quality and there was no way in your app to upload 4K to YouTube or Vimeo so I had to connect to my Mac and import the file. When I opened in Photoshop , and checked image size, it was x rather than the promised x I realize it takes time to resample up every frame but if you don't do it, I have to do it before I can upload to YouTube in 4K. More importantly though, I compared the quality. Of course I would want to know if your app is producing the same quality as my app.
But it isn't, I shot several scenes with both apps and several issues stand out. In particular the resolution isn't the same. Second is the aliasing around text and smooth objects and third is how gradients fall apart in the sky. If you can fix that, I'll concede that your app has the same quality as ours. Please address shutter sound issue. The reason we have priced our app so high is because it is doing much more than just using AssetWriter to write frames from the buffer to a movie file.
These give us a completely non-destructive still images editing workflow. If we only save movie files while recording, we would lose resolution and quality each time we process during editing and export. Full Non-Linear editing and finishing in 4K. Direct export and sharing in 4K to YouTube and Vimeo. Multi-Camera 4K recording with sound synch across devices. Sound volume editing, mixing and background music. I was honestly looking forward to using your app on my iPhone 6 until we add support.
We both know that iPhone's 8MP sensor is limited to x and that we are both upscaling. But in your review on the App Store and your comments here, the only point that you inaccurately stressed was that ProCam renders videos at x while Vizzywig produces 4K resolution x natively. You mention this point over and over in your comments. This again suggests that you are misleading users. Apart from the cost, nowhere in your description do you mention that this is a requirement to achieve 4K. Then you started de-emphasizing resolution and focusing on JPEG compression, making it sound like rocket science.
It's one line of code! We deliberately reduced our bitrate after reading reviews about Vizzywig and user comments. Going back and forth is a bit pointless as we both feel very strongly about our apps as it should be. Again, we would appreciate it if you would remove your review from the App Store. Full 4K editing workflow and distribution, multi-camera support and pro audio on an iPhone or iPad is significantly more complicated than writing frames to a movie file Majed.
As you said yourself, what you are doing is not rocket science. The rest of the workflow, what we are doing, is significantly more complicated. Just try to add it and see. Good lord! Michael you keep on bleating the same nonsense. Only the smallest fraction of your customer base will care about that crap. Especially since your data path does nothing but eat space. You need room to edit and process these obnoxiously large data files.
There's no getting around this. You're like the Terminator of promotional BS. Maybe if you just keep at it people will believe this garbage. You've done nothing but distort and sometimes even outright lie about the value of your product. I know my way around app development. I've shown where, why, and how your app is lacking.
I'm gonna give my money to ProCam 2. I'm guessing most others on here plan to do the same. I suggest they do exactly that or even give MoviePro some love. JUST for this, to make music bands videoclips Just for that Michael Zaletel, i learnt that when our stuff is good, good enough, we magnet the right people Your app deserves the price, period.
Of course I would want to know if your app is producing the same quality as my app. Vizzywig claims of encoding in native 4K resolution are false. Looking for Moondog Labs promo codes? It's not up-resing, it's taking 24 stills a second and stitching them together. When you just need to shoot something, edit it and post it in 4K to YouTube quickly, you don't exactly want to be spending an extra hour color-grading raw files. Apart from the cost, nowhere in your description do you mention that this is a requirement to achieve 4K.
The energy you "lost" here, could be used to benefit better the code or something else related to the app itself. You show no respect at all for a single line of code of Michael app. And i wonder Michael is searching for results ANY result is better than all your reason. He is serving everyone who wants to be served The consumer wants to SEE good or satisfactory results. Hey, that's Apple thinking and they have success, Nintendo too, the better ones in the world gave complicated things in simple ways!
This topic discussion reminds me music, which is my main passion. Some argue that vintage hardware is better Well, i prefer software! Because i can achieve the same or satisfactory results with less money and without carrying heavy things. They prefer carrying heavy things and spend LOTS of money. Back to that magical phrase: I would also like to recommend you visiting the following website https: Skip to main content. No Film School.
October 30, Last month, we wrote about Vizzywig4K , a one of a kind app that allows iPhones to shoot, edit, and deliver 4K video. Vizzywig 8xHD. Leave this field blank. Reply Share Share this answer: Lewis McGregor Content Creator. Rob Hardy Founder of Filmmaker Freedom. Michael Zaletel Founder, i4software. Blah That last article was pure bliss, entertainment for at least 3 days in the commentary.
Casey Bramall Larry Arace Scott Talbot Director. I didn't say you can't. I said you shouldn't. I said Larry was correct! That being said 4k on a phone isn't exactly needed. One free Promo code awaits Casey. Ping me via LinkedIN. Michael, may I ask why there are such few reviews in the Apple Store regarding the app? Hi Casey, Vizzywig 4K does not "res-up" x video. Laughing out loud.
At this moment. Rodrigo Molinsky I literally laughed for 5 solid minutes when I heard about the price reduction last night. We track store-wide promo codes for Moondog Labs so you can get a discount anything on at moondoglabs. Single-use codes. Single-use promo codes are good for only one purchase, and our community shares single-use codes for Moondog Labs and thousands of other retailers.
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